I understand that some casinos charge the vig up front, in which case the vig must be paid before the dice are rolled. The casinos that charge the vig only on a win subtract the vig from the payout.
I understand that the payout on 5 and 9 for a Place bet is 7 to 5 and for the Buy bet is 3 to 2.
What I am confused about is why The Wizard says '5 and 9: Place bet always better, unless commission on Buy is on win only.'
From my calculations, that statement is true only if the bet amount is $10-$24. According to my math, regardless of when the vig is charged, a Place bet is always better on any bet less than $10, while a Buy bet is always better whenever the bet amount is $25 or greater.
$25 Place bet on 5 and 9 pays $35
$25 Buy bet on 5 and 9 pays $36 on win
$24 Buy bet and $1 vig on 5 and 9 pays $36
$50 Place bet on 5 and 9 pays $70
$50 Buy bet on 5 and 9 pays $73 on win
$48 Buy bet and $2 vig on 5 and 9 pays $72
My experience this week:
At Excalibur, I made $25 Buy bets on 5 & 9 and was paid $36.
At Aria, when I said I wanted to Buy the 5 & 9 for $25, I was told 'We don't do that.' When I asked why I couldn't Buy the 5 & 9, I was told the 4 & 10 are 'free' but I would have to pay $1 up front for the 5 & 9. I believe he also said I would have to pay $1 again on the win. It was a full table and the dealer was busy with other players' bets, so I didn't press the issue.
An earlier visit to Aria, at a $25 minimum table, I made $25 Buy bets on 4 & 10 that paid $49. Dealer told me they are going to automatic Buys on the 4 & 10 soon and the Buy lamer won't be necessary.
If a Player places a Don't Come bet, the rules of the Don't Pass bet apply with one exception. If the next roll is a 7 or 11, the Player loses. If the next roll is a 2 or 3, the Player wins. The exception is that if the Shooter rolls a 12, the bet on the Don't Come is a tie. How to Play Craps. Craps is a game where many bettors get to stake their chips on a roll of the dice. The table layout makes the game seem a little confusing at first, but the rules are easy to pick up with experience. Buy Bets – Buy Bets are exactly the same as 'place bets' except by paying a 5% commission on the buy bet, you receive the true odds as shown on the chart. Buy bets are inactive on the come out roll unless called 'on' by the player. A 'buy' button denotes this bet. Lay Bets – You may lay a bet against 4,5,6,8,9 or 10 at any time. The Pass is the most fundamental bet in craps; almost every player at the table bets on it. If you only understand one bet in craps, it should be this one. The Pass bet is put on the the pass line itself on a come out roll. You can tell it is a come out roll if there is a black laminated marker on the table that says 'off.'
$25 Place bet on 5 and 9 pays $35
$25 Buy bet on 5 and 9 pays $36 on win
$25 Buy bet plus $1 vig on 5 and 9 pays $37 for a $36 win on first hit
$50 Place bet on 5 and 9 pays $70
$50 Buy bet on 5 and 9 pays $73 on win
$50 Buy bet plus $2 vig on 5 and 9 pays $75 for a $73 win on first hit
The Aria dealer is mistaken: you'd never have to pay again on the win after pre-paying commission unless you kept the bet up, which isn't paying on the win, it's paying in advance for the next bet. If you did that and then took the bet down before resolution, they *should* give the commission back. They don't always catch that, but in practice it's rare for someone to take down a buy or lay bet anyway.
But you have to pay attention: I used to do a hedge spread with 3 green chips: $50 no-4 (or no-10) plus $12 each 6/8. They'd charge $1 commission on the $50 no-4 and then I'd press the place bets $6 each whenever either hit; after 3 hits I'd take down the lay and just keep the place bets up. That's when I'd have to remind the dealer to refund the lay commission.
Otherwise, the convenient thing about that spread (for what it's worth) is that it's a complete wash when the 7 shows. $50 pays $25, $24 goes to remake the place bets and the $1 pays for the lay again. You're basically paying the lay commission to transfer the risk from 7 to 4.
One other thing that I was still uncertain about is if the vig is charged up front, would it would be advantageous when the number hit more than once. I concluded that the odds of hitting the number more than once would not favor having to pay the vig up front, however you are implying that the vig would have to be paid again each time the number is hit. This is clearly a disadvantage.
Big fish casino rigged boats. One other thing that I was still uncertain about is if the vig is charged up front, would it would be advantageous when the number hit more than once. I concluded that the odds of hitting the number more than once would not favor having to pay the vig up front, however you are implying that the vig would have to be paid again each time the number is hit. This is clearly a disadvantage.
Oh absolutely, it's one vig per bet resolution, not once up-front for as long as the bet doesn't lose. That's what the dealer meant to say. Plus, that'd be an absolute mess once you started pressing buy bets.To OP: $25 buy on the 5 or 9 is stupid. I hate to be so blunt, but you're getting screwed if you don't buy for an even number (same with buying the 6,8 outside of a multiple of 5). $25 pays $37.5, rounded DOWN to $37, $1 vig pays $36 total; $24 pays $36, no rounding, $1 vig pays $35 total. In short, you are betting $1 less to win $1 less (which is a great deal for a bet that pays more than 1:1). Buy for $28, $24, or $20 depending on where they make the cutoff. I get the house edge of a $28 buy bet on the 5 or 9 at 1.42% ($29 buy on 4/10 to pay $57 is 1.0%). This is an acceptable range if you're not going to be an anal retentive pass + come only player (I can't stand that strategy).
Buying the 5 or 9 for an uneven number is just as silly as taking odds on a point of 5 or 9 for an uneven number (I figured using 'odds' in both of its forms in the same sentence would have been confusing).
Craps Rules Buy Betting
In Biloxi it seems few casinos have the same rules. MGM pays $36 for a $25 5 as does Hard Rock. Harrah's pays $35 for a bought $24 5 or a placed $25 5. No you cannot buy a 5 at $25! Treasure Bay same rules as Harrah's.
I used to do a hedge spread with 3 green chips: $50 no-4 (or no-10) plus $12 each 6/8. They'd charge $1 commission on the $50 no-4 and then I'd press the place bets $6 each whenever either hit; after 3 hits I'd take down the lay and just keep the place bets up. That's when I'd have to remind the dealer to refund the lay commission.
Otherwise, the convenient thing about that spread (for what it's worth) is that it's a complete wash when the 7 shows. $50 pays $25, $24 goes to remake the place bets and the $1 pays for the lay again. You're basically paying the lay commission to transfer the risk from 7 to 4.
Just splitting hairs here, but this is NOT a hedge bet since each bet could win, or both could loose. My understanding of a hedge bet is bets that are at odds with one another with only one outcome or winner (don't come and come at the same time, hard 10 and lay 10, any craps and passline)
I play like this often and I am putting a lay up and taking it down frequently. I'm sure it is a huge pain for the dealer - but they get paid plenty from my loose tips. I tip a ridiculous amount so they don't get pissed.
I play like this often and I am putting a lay up and taking it down frequently. I'm sure it is a huge pain for the dealer - but they get paid plenty from my loose tips. I tip a ridiculous amount so they don't get pissed.
Realizing how much (quantifying) I tip after hearing so many whining dealers is the main reason I don't worry about HE% as much as I used to.
Pie-chart the 'cost to play' including transportation and tips and so on. If you really want to compare it to a job, cost opportunity on your time is really the biggest cost to gambling.
The house edge is the smallest number in any analysis I have ever done on what is the cost to play the game. The casino does not get much from me; the dealers get more (they still complain sometimes); and you just can't ever get away from the guy who is selling you jet fuel or gasoline to fuel your gambling habits.
If you keep ALL of this in mind, you MUST realize that you are there to be entertained. And if you ARE there to gamble for a life-changing result (IE: a good one) full pressure and/or TRYING to get rid of your money with the lowest compound edge (press all the way on the four and ten at LEAST until you get to max bet) is the way to go.
I've told this to at least one player who later won (and later gave back) $40,000 at the Silverton. You don't get into the tens of thousands of dollars flat betting minimum bets.
To OP: $25 buy on the 5 or 9 is stupid. I hate to be so blunt, but you're getting screwed if you don't buy for an even number (same with buying the 6,8 outside of a multiple of 5). $25 pays $37.5, rounded DOWN to $37, $1 vig pays $36 total; $24 pays $36, no rounding, $1 vig pays $35 total. In short, you are betting $1 less to win $1 less (which is a great deal for a bet that pays more than 1:1). Buy for $28, $24, or $20 depending on where they make the cutoff. I get the house edge of a $28 buy bet on the 5 or 9 at 1.42% ($29 buy on 4/10 to pay $57 is 1.0%). This is an acceptable range if you're not going to be an anal retentive pass + come only player (I can't stand that strategy).
Buying the 5 or 9 for an uneven number is just as silly as taking odds on a point of 5 or 9 for an uneven number (I figured using 'odds' in both of its forms in the same sentence would have been confusing).
I am aware of the small loss in rounding, but I still thank you for taking the time to point it out and provide a good explanation.
My ideology on the $25 bet stems from recently switching to Place bets from Pass/Come bets with full 3-4-5x odds. Instead of betting $5 on the Pass Line or Come backed up with $20 odds on the 5 & 9 to win $5 + $30, I make a $25 Place bet on the 5 & 9 and win $35. I did the math and found the same $25 as a Buy on the 5 & 9 would win $36.
I bet $150 across all 6 numbers: $20 Buy on 4 & 10; $25 Place on 5 & 9; $30 Place on 6 & 8. I'm still working out whether to Buy the 4 & 10 for $18 and whether to Buy the 5 & 9 for either $24 or $26. If the casino will allow it, I could spread $144 with $18 & $24 Buys and get a $35 payout on all numbers. I can't remember now whether or not I have ever made an $18 Buy on 4 & 10 in a live game, but my experiences vary, even at the same casino. On my last visit to Excalibur, the dealer wouldn't let me Buy the 4 & 10 for less than $20. I did Buy the 5 & 9 for $24 (getting $2 back from my $150), but then the floor/boxman walked up and asked if the $1 vig was taken up front for the 5 & 9. My previous visit, I made a $25 Buy on 5 & 9 and was paid $36. I'm guessing that a Buy bet on 5 & 9 happens so infrequently that the boys may not always remember the house rule.
Introduction
Zynga poker download for android download. One argument that comes up a lot is how to quantify the house edge in craps. Normally the house edge is defined as the ratio of expected loss to the initial bet. However, how do you treat bets, like the place bet for example, when many rolls may be required to resolve the bet and the player can take it down anytime? Is it a push or should we assume the bet will stay on the table until resolved?
Personally, I prefer to define the house edge in craps on a 'per bet resolved' basis. However, for those who disagree, I present this page, which defines the house edge all three ways.
Multi-Roll Bets
The following table shows the house edge of all the bets in craps which may take multiple rolls to resolve. The house edge is shown three ways: per bet made, per bet resolved, and per roll.
Craps House Edge
| Bet | Pays | Expected Rolls | House Edge Per Bet Made | House Edge Per Bet Resolved | House Edge Per Roll |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Pass | 1 to 1 | 3.38 | 1.41% | 1.41% | 0.42% |
| Don't Pass | 1 to 1 | 3.47 | 1.36% | 1.40% | 0.40% |
| Taking Odds 6 and 8 | 6 to 5 | 3.27 | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| Taking Odds 5 and 9 | 3 to 2 | 3.60 | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| Taking Odds 4 and 10 | 2 to 1 | 4.00 | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| Laying Odds 6 and 8 | 5 to 6 | 3.27 | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| Laying Odds 5 and 9 | 2 to 3 | 3.60 | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| Laying Odds 4 and 10 | 1 to 2 | 4.00 | 0.00% | 0.00% | 0.00% |
| Place 6 and 8 | 7 to 6 | 3.27 | 0.46% | 1.52% | 0.46% |
| Place 5 and 9 | 7 to 5 | 3.60 | 1.11% | 4.00% | 1.11% |
| Place 4 and 10 | 9 to 5 | 4.00 | 1.67% | 6.67% | 1.67% |
| Big 6 and 8 | 1 to 1 | 3.27 | 2.78% | 9.09% | 2.78% |
| Don't Place 6 and 8 | 4 to 5 | 3.27 | 0.56% | 1.82% | 0.56% |
| Don't Place 5 and 9 | 5 to 8 | 3.60 | 0.69% | 2.50% | 0.69% |
| Don't Place 4 and 10 | 5 to 11 | 4.00 | 0.76% | 3.03% | 0.76% |
| Buy 6 and 8 * | 23 to 21 | 3.27 | 1.46% | 4.76% | 1.46% |
| Buy 5 and 9 * | 29 to 21 | 3.60 | 1.32% | 4.76% | 1.32% |
| Buy 4 and 10 * | 39 to 21 | 4.00 | 1.19% | 4.76% | 1.19% |
| Buy 6 and 8 ** | 23 to 20 | 3.27 | 0.69% | 2.27% | 0.69% |
| Buy 5 and 9 ** | 29 to 20 | 3.60 | 0.56% | 2.00% | 0.56% |
| Buy 4 and 10 ** | 39 to 20 | 4.00 | 0.42% | 1.67% | 0.42% |
| Lay 6 and 8 * | 19 to 25 | 3.27 | 1.22% | 4.00% | 1.22% |
| Lay 5 and 9 * | 19 to 31 | 3.60 | 0.90% | 3.23% | 0.90% |
| Lay 4 and 10 * | 19 to 41 | 4.00 | 0.61% | 2.44% | 0.61% |
| Lay 6 and 8 ** | 19 to 24 | 3.27 | 0.69% | 2.27% | 0.69% |
| Lay 5 and 9 ** | 19 to 30 | 3.60 | 0.56% | 2.00% | 0.56% |
| Lay 4 and 10 ** | 19 to 40 | 4.00 | 0.42% | 1.67% | 0.42% |
| Hard 6 and 8 (US) | 9 to 1 | 3.27 | 2.78% | 9.09% | 2.78% |
| Hard 6 and 8 (AU) | 19 to 2 | 3.60 | 1.39% | 4.55% | 1.26% |
| Hard 4 and 10 (US) | 7 to 1 | 4.00 | 2.78% | 11.11% | 2.78% |
| Hard 4 and 10 (AU) | 15 to 2 | 4.00 | 1.39% | 5.56% | 1.39% |
Footnotes:
* Commission always paid
** Commission on win only
AU Australia rules
US United States rules
Let me add two more things, based on frequent reader comments:
- Some of these bets may not exist anywhere on earth. For example, I've never seen a casino with buy bets on a 5, 6, 8, and 9 where the commission was payable on a win only. Nevertheless, I don't know the rules of every craps table on earth. I also know that if I omit such bets, somebody will write in and take me to task for the omission.
- The table above assumes wins are calculated exactly. In other words, no rounding up or down. Let me make it perfectly clear that you can lower the house edge if the dealers will round a win up or a commission down. A common one is a 5% commission on a $25 bet is $1.25. If the casino rounds that down to $1, then that cuts the commission to 4%. Finding other situations is an exercise left up to the reader.
Single-Roll Bets
The following table shows the house edge of all the bets in craps which are always resolved in a single roll, except the field. Thus, there can be only one way to define the house edge.
Craps House Edge
| Bet | Pays | Probability Win | House Edge |
|---|---|---|---|
| 2, 12, and all 'hard' hop bets | 33 | 2.78% | 5.56% |
| 2, 12, and all 'hard' hop bets | 32 | 2.78% | 8.33% |
| 2, 12, and all 'hard' hop bets | 31 | 2.78% | 11.11% |
| 2, 12, and all 'hard' hop bets | 30 | 2.78% | 13.89% |
| 2, 12, and all 'hard' hop bets | 29 | 2.78% | 16.67% |
| 3, 11, and all 'easy' hop bets | 16 | 5.56% | 5.56% |
| 3, 11, and all 'easy' hop bets | 15 | 5.56% | 11.11% |
| 3, 11, and all 'easy' hop bets | 14 | 5.56% | 16.67% |
| Any craps (2, 3, or 12) | 7 | 11.11% | 11.11% |
| Any craps (2, 3, or 12) | 7.5 | 11.11% | 5.56% |
| Any seven (US) | 4 | 16.67% | 16.67% |
| Any seven (AU) | 4.5 | 16.67% | 8.33% |
Field
Craps Rules Buy Bets
- If the field bet pays 2 to 1 on both the 2 and 12, then the house edge is 5.56%.
- If the field bet pays 2 to 1 on the 2 and 3 to 1 on the 12, then the house edge is 2.78%.
- If the field bet pays 3 to 1 on the 2 and 2 to 1 on the 12, then the house edge is 2.78%.
- If the field bet pays 3 to 1 on both the 2 and 12, then the house edge is 0.00%.
Internal Links
- How the house edge for each bet is derived, in brief.
- The house edge of all the major bets on both a per-bet made and per-roll basis
- Dice Control Experiments. The results of two experiments on skillful dice throwing.
- Dice Control Advantage. The player advantage, assuming he can influence the dice.
- Craps variants. Alternative rules and bets such as the Fire Bet, Crapless Craps, and Card Craps.
- California craps. How craps is played in California using playing cards.
- Play Craps. Craps game using cards at the Viejas casino in San Diego.
- Number of Rolls Table. Probability of a shooter lasting 1 to 200 rolls before a seven-out.
- Ask the Wizard. See craps questions I've answered about:
- Simple Craps game. My simple Java craps game.
Written by: Michael Shackleford
